[wiki-standards] Re: wiki-standards Digest, Vol 22, Issue 9

[phil jones]

You're onto a loser here.

No one is going to sign up to a standard that explicitly prevents them
adding variations.

There's good precedent. Read up on Postel's Law and
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/21/dive.html

Not even the W3C have been able to force people not to embrace and
extend HTML for their own purposes, and they have a lot more clout
than WikiCreole.

If you want a very tight, restrictive spec. write it, write a parser,
promote it, give "Kirk Compliant" badges to wikis that guarantee never
to violate it.

And good luck to you. But you'll have to start your own movement,
because I doubt WikiCreole is going to be it.

phil


On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Mike Haseler <mike at lenzie.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Our plan was that Creole Additions would be used for things such as
>> text color that not every wiki needs, but some wikis want.  The idea
>> was that we would first standardize the elements that everyone needs
>> and then the optional elements we would put in Additions.  Does this
>> address that issue?
>>
>> We really did work hard to make this spec, and yes I'll admit it's
>> quite lax, but we're open to criticism.  :)  I'm thinking we should
>> mention Dirk's grammar on WikiCreole.org more prominently.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Chuck
>>
> Chuck,
>
> I've no doubt you worked hard on the spec. I think what really made me angry
> was the thought of all this effort - and badly needed effort - going to
> waste through lack of ambition.
>
>> was that we would first standardize the elements that everyone needs
>
> As a user, I'm beginning to realise that what I need the standard to say is
> WHAT IS NOT GOING TO PRODUCE MARKUP. As a user, I'm prepared to find out how
> to do things, but it really pisses me off to find things that I think should
> be interpreted as text being interpreted as markup when:
>
> 1. I often don't know the application being used on the site
> 2. Even if I knew the application, I probably don't know the markup it uses
> 3. Even if I had experience of the application and markup, the huge variety
> of markup and uses means I forget what does what on what site.
>
> I really need to have some simple rules to be able to predict which
> character combinations **WILL NOT BE INTERPRETED AS FORMATTING**
>
> Every time some brightspark invents another sequence of characters, it is
> another potential pitfall for anyone who is brave enough to post on unknown
> sites.
>
> That is what I think was forgotten when Creole set as its goal being
> "collision free" and "optional" or whatever it says.
>
> By saying you aren't going to have character sequences that are already used
> elsewhere, you are effectively increasing the number of character
> combinations that a user on a random wiki needs to avoid to prevent
> inadvertent markup - you are making the task of wiki entry MORE DIFFICULT
> NOT LESS.
>
> By saying Creole markup is arbitrarily extendible with random sequences of
> new characters depending on the whim of the code writer, you are in effect
> telling the user they can never be sure how to avoid markup.
> __EVEN ON A SITE THAT SAYS IT USES CREOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!__
>
> So, let me propose as the prime user-centric goals which I think are key to
> a successful wiki markup spec:-
>
> 1. Creole will make maximal reuse of currently used markup characters and
> sequences (not necessarily for the same formatting)
>
> 2. Creole will define all potential character code sequences even when many
> may not be implemented in the current (or any) specification.
>
> The problem Creole faces is that:
>
> Goal (1) is totally undermined by the Creole's current attempt to be
> collision free.
>
> Goal (2) is totally undermined by this idea of creating a core set of markup
> and leaving it up to the developer to arbitrarily define whatever extension
> code they like.
>
> Mike
>
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